Ethics of this forum and posting

[NH watcher]

What prompts my post is both the reaction to some of my posts as of late, as well as what I cannot find in any of the preliminaries (rules/guidelines) of this forum as to its "ethics," and/or what is or should be the chief goals of this forum, its threads, and those who post here.

The Internet has been around for some time now, and public forums of whatever subject or interest as well.  As is true of the NDC, as well as most any forum on the Net, forums often have many people who come and visit, join, may post for awhile, and then leave, or rarely post again.  I don't see any active statistics for the NDC, but I suspect that on a daily basis, only 5% or less of the registered members actually post.  And as is true of most any forum, some members do tend to dominate the board, and post very frequently, whether they are moderators or not.

The Internet often gives the illusion of importance.  While it is true, any and all contributions to a public forum have to be assumed to be valuable until proven otherwise, it is also true that it is the responsibility of members to be cognizant of the flow of the forum, and in the case of the NDC, dare I say, the prompting of the Spirit.  We all may define the Spirit differently, based on our personal beliefs, but it is important to not only think before you post, but also gauge inside of yourself whether or not you truly believe that what you are posting will be valuable and helpful to others.

It is very hard sometimes to know when to speak, and when to shut up, and let others speak.  How sad it would be, if we surveyed all current registered members of the NDC (the 2000 plus collective), to find out that it is not due to busyness in their lives that many don't post, but rather that they feel whatever they post would be ridiculed, dominated, and/or taken over by others.

Thus, the ethics of this forum go hand in hand with the humility of each and every member and visitor.  Personally, it is never my goal to consume a given thread with only my thoughts or feelings.  Of course, it is wonderful to be validated by others, or even to be taken to task.  That is how we learn and grow.  And none of us can sit here and literally hold each other's hands in life; life is complicated, diverse, and difficult.  Facts and emotions change and can run wild each and every day.

On the whole, I believe there is much respect on the NDC, probably the most respect I have seen in all the forums I have visited or joined over the years.  And that is in large part due to the diligence and forbearance of the moderator(s).  They know when to step in and stop something, and when to just let it go and see where it goes.  And this is often a very hard task indeed, and not without its mistakes and lessons learned.

At a minimum, I would argue that each and every post here should be made with the hope and intention that it will be valuable to the forum as a whole; otherwise, it should simply be a private message shared between two members.  Not every thought in one's head need be posted ... reactions to any post may take many directions, bring up both positive and negative feelings; none of us can control others, as we have each been granted abundant "free will" by God and the Universe.  In the end, God is our one and only Judge.  To know that when each of us ends our earthly lives, we will face God alone, is a sobering and humbling revelation, and no matter how many emotions swirl in our heads on a daily basis, this revelation should give us pause: to push when pushing is needed, and to retreat when retreating is needed.

[Eagle1]

Wow! Excellent thoughts here NH Watcher. Indeed, more and more of the collective unconscious is revealed with each new dream posted here. More and more interpretation of said dreams makes the collective mind even clearer. More perspectives are warranted, and each member's thoughts should be cherished. Well said.

[twiceblessed9]

Very thoughtful words NH. Thank you! I wonder if we can mention somewhere on the site about what you mentioned, that "each and every post here should be made with the hope and intention that it will be valuable to the forum as a whole". That would be mindful.

[Nanny]

NHWatcher, thank you for bringing this here. Much appreciated, as I wouldn't continue on Aletalete's thread out of respect.

Therefore, my first post here is in reply to things you said on that thread.

I can't help it if anyone in your past did "ask God" for lotto numbers. I never have and did not suggest anyone do that here at NDC. I never asked God for a string of numbers or single numbers when I was buying tickets in the eighties or nineties, either. Did not have to. Numbers popped into my mind as quickly as I could write them.

Same is true for last June when I chose 5 sets during a very unique and weird 2 week period of my life here at NDC. Just scribbled'em on the fridge marker-board as quickly as I could write. Why? **the experiment** of it all! the fun, yes.
Numbers pop into my mind intermittently and have for decades and they turn out to be true. No asking God, they just happen so therefore I don't ask for them when experimenting.

My experience is that intuition puts them there without asking and without trying to engineer them in any way. (happened just hours ago with names, a multiple-choice question by a Hollywood reporter on a radio station, the correct of 4 names popped into my mind and I said it aloud for fun, standing next to hubby in kitchen. I knew NOTHING about which of the 4 male actors do a B.clinton voice the best, but the right one was what I said aloud.) I LUV! experiments and have I guess all of my life.

I could not disagree more. This forum is a Grand Experiment with all types of precognitive gifts. Some of us never asked for the gifts that were hoisted upon us. This and any other forum that allows for general discussion of, so it appears, anything that isn't X-rated or off colored is not an inappropriate place to share lotto numbers, recipes or any number of things. EXCEPT....

this is Eagle1's forum. If he says not to share them here, bingo settles it for me not because I agree it is out of place but because it's "his dime, his time" and I am a guest here, just as when being a guest in anyone's home.

Again, I disagree with you. No, not "just about anything" can be justified by bible and certainly not my conscience. Never has been done in my life nor will. The scripture I posted is quite clear as I read it.

I can't speak for others here but playing with the lotto, experimenting with guessing games and maybe, like myself not buying a ticket, (still have not since living temporarily in TX back in '97) does not require that I "believe for a moment that God's purposes (or any spiritual gain) comes from lottery winnings alone." My walk with Him, as He has held His nose and tolerated me for so long, is a deeper, richer and more mature of a relationship than for your words here to be able to relate to me at this time.

It is not the lottery's fault that some of those that are the most needy or that are the most foolish with what they have had and have, misuse the thing. Yes, the human condition shows us that were this line of thinking to dictate what we allow or not allow, oh, so many things as well as guns, knives and many others would be things we find fault with even existing.

"What this forum continually seeks" is to be able to predict the future. Predicting what numbers will arise for gain as well as not for personal gain is not insulting this place, as this Grand Experiment has presented some of the strangest, most shocking things ever witnessed by myself, included and *to myself, included. My hunch is that some others here have had freaky things thrown upon them that they, too did not seek in any way.

Ahh, now I read your second long post, the one where you share that you've had personal, very negative experience with a or some lottery. Whew, very sorry to hear that and thankful that you shared this. It helps to understand why you have said many of the things you have, about it.

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NHWatcher, now I can reply to your thread-opener here.

The ethics that I found here were for P2 in that section and I barely remember reading a page in late June or early July before leaving. It said something clearly and simply about not using P2 abilities? or not sure of the word after "P2" for financial gain? or some type of personal gain or heck did it? say "personal gain" in a carte blanche manner.
I can't recall any other place of ethics mentioned, so I assume ethics by some of the farout stuff I've witnessed here.

Yes, you are right about all forums. Even citydata.com or something like that has way over a million members registered, if that's not 2 million and only a relative "tiny fraction" of that registered number are regular members and it, too has sections for literally every subject in life, even mental health, etc. Of course those that post daily "dominate" the place. Also true they keep it alive, giving it something for th e lurkers to log in to read.

The internet does not have just "the illusion" of importance. For example, www.drudgereport.com Is not just a news site. It determines the news reported in any given day, oh I suspect to around 97% or so. Many of us do the majority of our shopping online, many medical staff now email with patients and even off of that contact email back and/or phone, to inform what prescription is being phoned-in to the person's chosen pharmacy. The internet *is* now important, touching many areas if not all in our lives. So much so that some liberal states, Hawaii is one that dared to suggest taking "voting" to internet!! I know someone that is livid about that "threat/suggestion."

I am very glad that you mentioned the "taking over" of threads and/or fact it can feel like that in the flow of human conversation, or I should have said the "evolution" of conversation. I got off of Aletalete's thread as quickly as that person posted their unhappiness about their thread. Again, in a way we were all guests on that thread, IMO.

Yes, being a mod is sometimes a breeze and other times VERY hard! I have been one at three forums in 18 or so year, I think a fourth but LOL with ten people, no, I never ever "moderated." The owner, when it was new did not know how big it would grow, hence asking a few of us to moderate.
But! oh man, the first time a mod back in '98, I think it was, I made friends with a dozen people at least, and then two of them would "get into it" over politics and I was reading from behind the scenes and seeing points by each of them. It's enough to pull your hair out when two folks of integrity and great intellect "get into it" on any level.
The mods here have this place looking awesome~

Ahh, and in closing, on your last paragraph, have you noticed how the section here of "Inspiration...Art...Creativity...Poems...Positivity" is introduced? Oh man, OR **WAS** introduced, did you see it? LOL I don't see the short introduction now but know I read it many months ago. I may be wrong but I think the gifted dreamer Windy wrote the intro., it said something about if our contribution could bless even one person, to post it.
Yes~

[NH watcher]

Thank you all to your reactions to this thread. I especially appreciate Eagle1's contribution, knowing how busy he is these days. And, of course, I must thank Nanny for her very verbose, but also insightful criticism. As most who come here, I have very little time myself to read each and every thread, each and every response, each and every contribution. I feel the loss of that, but there simply are so many hours in any given day.

I would predict that if any lottery winner came out and said, they got their numbers from such and such psychic, that psychic would have to go into hiding immediately! The rest of the world would insist, why did you tell him, her, and not us?

And so, while this forum is one big grand experiment, it also has a purpose, and goals. If it is a free for all, we would have anarchy. No, I cannot control what other people post, or not. I have to leave it to them to have the discernment of when to contribute, and when not to contribute. Many members on this forum come and go, some take weeks or months off, and that can be all well and good, to allow other members to percolate up. None of us has a 100%, perfect and complete claim on the Truth. There is a God, and there is absolute Truth, but this life is one of constant growth, trial and tribulation, and of overcoming.

What I would never want this forum to exclusively become is a fortune telling machine. A few fortunes, okay, but an emphasis on fortunes ... as we have learned all too well in our lives, only those "who lose their lives, will find them." All these threads here, as a whole, do go beyond mere materialism, and we are all the better for it.

[Nanny]

Fortune telling? Oh my, checked for rhetorical sake and "fortune telling" has 2 definitions at dictionary.com. Guess what the first one is?

"predicting the future!"

Now, I am no linguistics scholar and not apologizing for this. But, is dictionary.com incorrect on this definition?

This Grand Experiment's number one agenda is to tell the future, predicting news/events before they happen.

Amen to your other comments.

[ThePaladin]

Keeping in mind that every person who posts or just reads the posts will do so for their own reasons and will interpret what is posted based on their own interpretations. What one might find intriguing and informative, another may consider unnecessary or even inappropriate.

Everyone may have an idea or an expectation of what this forum should be. Each person may be convinced their POV is the logical answer but the bottom line is those are all opinions. None are necessarily wrong but none are necessarily right, either, not in terms of the vision of this forum.

I'm going to be blunt right now: I respect everyone's religious beliefs. However I don't like being preached at or having others' beliefs shoved into my face. I am well familiar with the Bible. Reading Bible references and constant mentioning of one's personal walk gives the feeling that those who don't follow a Judeo-Christian path need to keep quiet if they want to post here.

I realized very quickly that I was in the minority here. Hell, I'm a shaman, chosen and called by the Mother. I answered that call, even though I was raised in churches that would see me as a witch or consorting with Satan itself. I am also not a conservative as the label is currently understood. And while I have felt welcomed and that my input is valued, I wonder how many people come here, read posts snarking on our President or other targets of the so-called right, posts that read like the Bible, the dream version, and back away because they don't think they'll be welcome?

For those who want a TL;DR version: At what point does a post stop being an opinion and become a sermon(And I can ask myself that question. LOL ) ? While this is Eagle's party and he gets final say in all this, is the NDC going to be all inclusive or will it be limited to those who toe the majority line and keep their mouths shut?

[Nanny]

DLP, you said, "Keeping in mind that every person who posts or just reads the posts will do so for their own reasons and will interpret what is posted based on their own interpretations. What one might find intriguing and informative, another may consider unnecessary or even inappropriate."

YES!! All that we share here is via the written word. At best it is pitifully lacking in message-conveyance. no voice inflection, no way to know which words the writer has put emphasis on per their own mind, and without tone of voice, body language, seeing the eyes or "feeling their aura/vibes" so to speak.

It's a bloody wonder we don't have much bad feeling here, and heck maybe we do and are all properly keeping our feelings to ourselves.

The first forum I was ever a regular at and worked for a year or so had so many colorful disagreements that the owner, for a time posted at the top "Attack the Message, Not the Messenger." She did so out of need for it per what transpired there.

---

Now, replying to the remainder of your post, DLP.

I'm not sure you are in the minority here. We clearly have a New Age persence here, too. Always have since I found the place a year ago Sept. Blunt is good, and I'll follow-suit. That door, like most of all doors swing both ways.
I wonder how many Christians read the new age presence and they, too leave, or we can't know but are lurking/ reading only and won't touch the place.

Snarky comments about the president or anything political brings us to discussion of NDC's "Catch 22" so to speak. Politics (religion too) remain so controversial, and would be nice to avoid them, and someone can make a rule that they can't be discussed, but! here's the gigantic Catch...

This is an experiment about what people dream. We all dream reality. Prophetic dreams are reality-based and the Dreambot has no mercy because it brings what people do dream.

How on earth to avoid these things? In fact, I wonder how many times this Grand Experiment has not been true to science because we all "bit our tongues" avoiding what we discerned from a Run? and we were likely *correct* about?!

[NH watcher]

DLP, I really appreciate your contribution. I never wanted this thread to turn into exclusively NH Watcher's thoughts or Nanny's thoughts, or anyone else's. This forum is made up of many diverse members, from different ages, ethnicities, religions, etc. One thing I definitely know after years on the Internet, posting here and there, is you have to have a pretty thick skin. The open Internet is not for the faint of heart. There will be joys, and there will be sufferings. One of my mantras, which I still often fail at, is to "never assume." As the old saying goes, it really does make an ass out of u and me.

Nanny, to answer you, yes, I was using "fortune telling" in the literal sense of fortunes, or really anything for selfish gain. If you are joining this forum to tap into the "powers" of the beyond, and to use it for your own ends: caution, caution, and more caution. I would tell such a person (and I am not implying you are such a person) ... I would tell such a "generic" person, you are tapping into powers of which you really have no idea. That lays the groundwork for possession and obsession, and I ultimately conclude, the death of your individual soul.

Oh, DLP, I am sorry for using an obvious Christian reference here, or Christian illusion, please forgive me, but quoting C.S. Lewis from the Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, when Lucy asked the Beaver about Aslan, "Is he safe?" "Safe??," the Beaver retorted, "of course, he is not safe ... but he is good." When I have tapped into the beyond in my own life, that is what I am chiefly seeking: the goodness amidst the unsafety. No, I really had no idea what to think, for instance, in the dream thread where you and Still went back and forth about dragons. Sure, I could have posted and tried to dismiss it or ridicule it, but then that is where my own discernment came in. No, if I have nothing good to contribute, then silence and listen, and see what I can learn, for further growth in the spirit.

And I hasten to add any more personal references, and this is never to imply that others should talk personally. If you want to maintain privacy and mystery about yourselves and your lives, all well and good. No one here should ever insist that any member expose themselves, if they are uncomfortable doing so. As for me, I am a seminary graduate, from an Ivy League School. Doesn't mean much now; it is simply a credential that some people I meet still fawn over, but I know in reality, one's own personal smarts and education do not depend exclusively on where you go to school, etc.

Nonetheless, it was an interesting two years of my life, in my 20s, when I was far less mature than I am now. I went to seminary having grown a beard for the first time in my life, and was quickly labeled, "Jesus complex." I shaved it off within the first semester. Seminary was essentially a mixture of personal experiences and the more rigid and external scientific method. Books, including the Bible, were to be read critically, of course. And the mixture was uneasy, to be sure. If someone declared in class that they saw an angel last night in their dorm room, what do you do with that? Dismiss it immediately? Refer them to a psychiatrist? Heavens no! (Of course, it made the rest of the Ivy League School always say, we were just the loons up the hill, compared to the more dignified and worthwhile professions such as law, medicine, and business.)

But in preparing ministers (yes, mostly of the Christian gospel), the tension had to be reckoned with, e.g., if someone in your congregation loses their loved one to death in whatever way, and asks you point blank at the funeral, "Is so and so in heaven?," what do you say? "I don't know" is not an option! That should give any prospective minister, all those with the lofty, "I have been called ...," to pause and get on one's knees in sincere humility. What do you say? It all depends ...

This is why, it is important that no one person or group of persons dominate this forum. If you find yourself scrambling to read every thread, and reply with something on every thread, ask yourself, is this really about the forum, or is it about me? The "illusion of importance" I initially mentioned is just that ... far be it for any of us to think that we have the singular phrase, the best interpretation, or whatever. I say God, but you may simply say the Universe, will share its glory with us, but will never allow us to take its glory. That was the original sin really, that of Lucifer, no longer wanting to be the Angel of Light, but rather the Light itself.

And so now I retreat, to let any others who choose to do so speak, who have tapped into the Light, from whatever tradition, whatever religion, whatever background, whatever circumstance. You are here to share your dreams, or interpret dreams, or even to predict the future (which, far be it from me to doubt, may even involve a personal gain), but each one here is to be honored as a participant in this one grand experiment ... but an experiment not without its rules, its limitations, or, yes, even its ethics.

[Goldengirl]

From NH - And so now I retreat, to let any others who choose to do so speak, who have tapped into the Light, from whatever tradition, whatever religion, whatever background, whatever circumstance. You are here to share your dreams, or interpret dreams, or even to predict the future (which, far be it from me to doubt, may even involve a personal gain), but each one here is to be honored as a participant in this one grand experiment ... but an experiment not without its rules, its limitations, or, yes, even its ethics.

-----------------------------

NH - I would hope that you are not retreating entirely, as all are valuable here, and to lose you would be a great loss. To lose anyone here is a loss. We may not all share the same backgrounds, but we share a passion about dreams, and are drawn to this place of discussion. I myself, as I can speak for no one but myself, enjoy the diversity and hope that reading someone else's thoughts can give me pause to reconsider my own on occasion. The world and life is a grand experiment, meant to be lived and not meant for us to remain static. IMHO.

[Nanny]

NHWatcher, your fortune telling reference is acknowledged.

You said, "...., if someone in your congregation loses their loved one to death in whatever way, and asks you point blank at the funeral, "Is so and so in heaven?," what do you say? "I don't know" is not an option!

I beg to differ, so to speak. "I don't know" is not only an option but it is the proper thing to say. Because the person asked indeed doesn't know!
I am so sorry to hear that ministers are probably instructed to not be honest to such an important question. In fact, any of us that don't answer this are potentially stealing a person's moment of truth. They are seeking or pondering something profoundly VIP.

If they are told the, what many erring Christians call "little white lie," then they, too can then be tempted to relax about their own eternal fate since, if "so and so" made it without doubt, then they too don't have much to worry about, to simply state it.

Of course! after saying the true, "I don't know" or "we can't know," there's a loving "but............" where we, in our own style assure them, reminding them of God's perfect justice, patience, forgiveness, fairness, etc.

[NH watcher]

Don't have much time this morning, so will try to be brief.  No, Goldengirl, I am not leaving.  My "retreat" was only to say to anyone reading that response of mine ... geez, is he over enough now?  Can we talk?  Yes, I wanted to wrap things up in my response, and let others contribute.

Nanny, unless you yourself have actually been a minister in charge of a congregation, honestly, step back and ask yourself what you would really say to someone who is looking to you as an authority figure, a minister, someone who presumably has more insight into the beyond then said person.  I know, I know, Paul's reference to we are all ministers, yadda, yadda, yadda.  Tell me one church where that plays out perfectly.  I will tell you, there are none!

True enough, though, for anyone else, NOT a minister, replying to someone else in conjunction with their loved one's death ... true, the only wise thing to say is "I don't know."  But, would you not admit that if you went to a church where the minister was constantly saying, "I don't know ... it depends ... well, maybe," wouldn't you be looking for another church soon?  Of course, all churches have varying beliefs, both due to the congregation and the denomination it is a part of ... but, I conclude, when someone suffering in church goes to their minister to ask point blank ... they are looking for a yes or no response, not some wishy-washy "I don't know."

If you find some church which operates perfectly in the grey "I don't know" realm, let me know.  We all know how many churches are NOT perfect, operating in the "this way only" realm, but I was focusing on a person-to-person experience, between said minister and said congregant. It all depends on said minister and said congregant, but the response itself is never "it depends." Yes, God is fair, holy, and just, but as a minister, you are God's representative to that congregation. Paul may have instructed ministers simply to be teachers, but where does that play out in reality? Teachers in school seem to be able to say "yes and no" a heck of lot easier than any minister. As a minister, you comfort the grieving heart, and gauge what they need to know to heal. Do you lie? Heavens no ... you speak the truth as you know it, based on what you know at the time. Otherwise, quit now.

Yet, I digress, and am now making this response more about my life experiences, then the intention of the thread.  Should swallow my own pill and know when to shut up.  So, for now, I will, but no, I am not leaving the forum ... unless I am kicked out ... I'd always lurk though, as long as the Internet stays online.

[Goldengirl]

Thanks NH for clarifying! And I am glad you are not leaving. (Just shows how our online commentaries can be interpreted, does it not?!)

I started out as a lurker, but I am glad I took the leap and started to contribute. I appreciate your background into this topic (and any straying from too!). We all bring a lot of different ideas to the table, and that's what also makes this a success. I would hope that anyone out there who doesn't feel quite comfortable will also make that leap in trust and post, whether it is a dream, thoughts on a bot run, or any other information or positivity that will strike a chord with us AND that next person who is riding the fence about participating.

I believe we are all connected, and whether you call it him or her, God or the Great Spirit or TPTB, we are all meant to be right here, right now. I often use my drive time to work to speak with him, pray, whatever you'd like to call it. He's (and I'm not sure about that identifier, but it works) my sounding board, my leader, my friend, and he lets me know, by signs, what he thinks about my questions and whatever is troubling me. I can't speak for sure about it to anyone else, this is true. But I think if we have our eyes and ears and hearts open, we can all hear him and decide for ourselves.

And with that, I will bow out of the thread for now!

[Nanny]

NHWatcher, *honestly* were I a minister I would say exactly what I said to you. In fact, I know a minister that *is this honest and blunt, and I cherish him second to only my precious daddy that I was blessed with until he passed.

What is the reason to not be so honest and blunt with a congregation? is this a bit of ego that is within those teaching the minsters as well as with, not saying you because "I don't know" but a good number of the ministers?

What is wrong with folks within a church that hold their ministers in too high of regard, as if any human but Jesus really is "infallible?!" This is the crux of this subject we're discussing at this time.

We each, now that the veil is torn, can go to and hear *directly from our Lord, Jesus. Yes, it's great to have an elder within this journey into eternity to go to and bounce things off of. But, this doesn't negate that we each should trust our own walk with God and that "inner-leading."

Honestly, yes. The finest among ministers indeed will be like "training wheels on a bike" in encouraging their flock to reach and ask within themselves.

The finest ministers will not feel that because they are speaking publicly to many that they cannot or should not admit when they do not have an answer. What do some of them think they are, gods actually? I mean even just a tad, feel or think that way? Oh, the treasure to have someone minister to you us that is simple and honest, blunt but of course not from spitefulness or rudeness.

Honest like a little boy telling an old lady like me, "hey, why do you have a mustache" etc. After-all, bible tells us "except ye become as little children you will no way enter Heaven."

Paul spoke the simple fact. The Holy Spirit is not limited to ministering just through those that call themselves such. God's word, yes is Jesus but meaning the "written" word is not limited to just the bible. His Spirit speaks through even us as we, too write "letters" to others and more bibles could be bound and published, *gasp, lol. No, I did not just commit blasphemy. The Living, eternal Spirit speaks through humans, always has and always will.

Ministers should be willing to trust His Spirit to comfort and deal with the folks that receive that answer "I don't know." Which would, IMO always be followed by our own comforting reminders of how perfect, loving, Patient! and fair that our God is.

"If you find some church which operates perfectly in the grey "I don't know" realm, let me know." You said.

What do you suggest churches operate in? The "white lies so as to not hurt anybody's little feelings?!" I'll tell ya this, if you find a megachurch that does NOT operate in the "feel good" arena with little white lies, do let me know.

What I may be able to "find" and what **should* be able to be found are sadly the opposites, here.

Ministers that "feel their congregation's pain" and operate within that are no better than a spoiling mama that steals her children's maturity and sometimes even their salvation by feeling their pain and lying to and coddling them out of her "love."

I am sincerely glad you are not leaving. We are not just the salt of the earth, *all of us, conclusive of all philosophies of life are not just salt but it is in our differences that are the spices of life. How can any of us grow if we are not willing to or not able to have discussions with those we disagree with on something.

Lastly, you are my sibling-in-Christ, and I am yours whether either of us secretly were to wish it not so, or not. We both rock for what we have discussed, and how we have done it. I love our Father-God for countless things, one of which comes to mind right now.

He does not let us choose who our siblings are.
He is not limited to each of our beliefs, is a sovereign, direct and personal savior and Father.
There are what, I've read approx. 2,000 sects of Christianity. Oh my, and each thinking in our heart of hearts that we have the truest flavor of our church/beliefs.

Surely He is up there smiling, amused at each of us at various times and yet pleased with our faith, fervor and looking to Him for even our every breath.

[NH watcher]

True enough, Nanny ... I don't want this thread to simply become a back-and-forth between you and me; I do treasure the others who have contributed.  Speaking to anyone after the death of a loved one is sincerely difficult.  Often, sympathies are offered when they are not wanted.  And grieving takes so much time, that it is ever hard to gauge when to speak and when to be quiet.

I suppose that I also come from the vantage point of my father's suicide, and working through myself where exactly he is now.  I had enough opinions, "He's in Hell," "He's in Heaven," that it was truly all a wash, one opinion cancelling out the other.  And no, I never sought out a minister myself to ask point blank, where do YOU think he is?  Due to my seminary background, I knew enough about the "shop" already not to put any minister in such a quandary.  By nature of the hierarchy of any church, ministers are usually in a no-win situation.  It is their job; and for many, it is only their part-time job.  But yet, any minister must be prepared to answer any and all questions, from a grieving heart for sure.

And then there is the story of Augustine's mother, Monica, going to Ambrose, the Bishop, to ask (to plead!) what else she might do to draw her wayward son to the faith.  She had already been praying for years, on her knees and in tears, with very little to show for it.  So, Monica asked Ambrose point blank, and he knew she was not going to leave without a definite answer.  True enough, he initially said, "I don't know ...," but then he paused, looking at her as she was already in tears again in his study; he knew she needed something way more definite than his uncertainty on the matter.  So, he then spoke calmly, "My dear Monica, there is only one thing that I know for sure, and that is, NO ONE for whom THESE TEARS have been shed, will go unsaved."

God does ask us to come to Him as little children, and as little children ask their parents, don't we all seek definite answers?  We learn definite answers in our youth, then unlearn them as we age, only to reconnect with these same answers later in life, in the midst of life's ebbs and flows.  Are they the same answers as from our youth?  Most likely not.  But, don't we all want them to be just as definite?

Answering in the place of God Himself is an awesome challenge indeed.  Still, I would never want God Himself to tell me, the moment my spirit leaves my body, "I don't know."  Or worse, "well, see, it depends on how I am feeling today ... maybe you should have died yesterday; today is a bad day for me; I had some bad sushi for lunch."  God will want a conversation with us at death; He will ask us point blank.  And so too must our answer be clear.  

Maybe the point of our back-and-forth here is to show others that you can go into the gutter with someone and still come out clean.  If this forum were composed of 2,000+ members, each with the exact same opinion, oh how truly boring and pitiful it would be!

[Goldengirl]

Well said NH. Thank you.

[Nanny]

NHWatcher, these public forums are all open to anyone that's registered so it's cool beans with me if everyone or few chat on it. I thank you again for answering my request that you start it here.

Yes, it's a very hard situation that we all deal with. I take my que from the ones that are likely hurting the most. I do my best to answer honestly, being true to the reality and potential reality of it when it's something like being discussed that no other human can know the answer to, though we can have hunches about.

I know nothing about Augustine and Ambrose, was it? Therefore, I can't know for sure but it sounds to me like Ambrose did the little "white lie" thing, telling the grieving that someone or some group of people will not "go unsaved." We mere mortals can't know who will be saved and who will not. Yes, we are saved by faith not by works, *but, same bible tells us that "faith without works is dead" and of course this is because dead faith does not save anyone.

Yes, the simplicity of a child wants, hopes for and even expects definite answers. We and they of course do not always get definite answers. We get what is definitely possible or even probable. We then get schooled and hopefully, brought gently to the realities of no one being able to give us definite answers except God. A little child should be gently pointed to pondering and gently told when we do not know we in fact can't possibly know anything for sure.

LOL no, God is the ONLY being that doesn't *not* know something. Thankfully, you're not in any danger of having God answer you that way as your spirit heads toward the light/God upon physical death.

That may indeed be the point of this thread. I know I still feel as clean as I was before this discussion. It is true that a pile of dung doesn't taint the sun, but the sun purifies it.

Indeed each of us has shone light of truth here. It is in the differences between siblings-in-Christ that we may discern the difference in Eternally-speaking, the "need to know" and the "nice to know."

God bless you, NHWatcher.