Chat
01-16-2016, 01:20 PM
True enough, Nanny ... I don't want this thread to simply become a back-and-forth between you and me; I do treasure the others who have contributed. Speaking to anyone after the death of a loved one is sincerely difficult. Often, sympathies are offered when they are not wanted. And grieving takes so much time, that it is ever hard to gauge when to speak and when to be quiet.
I suppose that I also come from the vantage point of my father's suicide, and working through myself where exactly he is now. I had enough opinions, "He's in Hell," "He's in Heaven," that it was truly all a wash, one opinion cancelling out the other. And no, I never sought out a minister myself to ask point blank, where do YOU think he is? Due to my seminary background, I knew enough about the "shop" already not to put any minister in such a quandary. By nature of the hierarchy of any church, ministers are usually in a no-win situation. It is their job; and for many, it is only their part-time job. But yet, any minister must be prepared to answer any and all questions, from a grieving heart for sure.
And then there is the story of Augustine's mother, Monica, going to Ambrose, the Bishop, to ask (to plead!) what else she might do to draw her wayward son to the faith. She had already been praying for years, on her knees and in tears, with very little to show for it. So, Monica asked Ambrose point blank, and he knew she was not going to leave without a definite answer. True enough, he initially said, "I don't know ...," but then he paused, looking at her as she was already in tears again in his study; he knew she needed something way more definite than his uncertainty on the matter. So, he then spoke calmly, "My dear Monica, there is only one thing that I know for sure, and that is, NO ONE for whom THESE TEARS have been shed, will go unsaved."
God does ask us to come to Him as little children, and as little children ask their parents, don't we all seek definite answers? We learn definite answers in our youth, then unlearn them as we age, only to reconnect with these same answers later in life, in the midst of life's ebbs and flows. Are they the same answers as from our youth? Most likely not. But, don't we all want them to be just as definite?
Answering in the place of God Himself is an awesome challenge indeed. Still, I would never want God Himself to tell me, the moment my spirit leaves my body, "I don't know." Or worse, "well, see, it depends on how I am feeling today ... maybe you should have died yesterday; today is a bad day for me; I had some bad sushi for lunch." God will want a conversation with us at death; He will ask us point blank. And so too must our answer be clear.
Maybe the point of our back-and-forth here is to show others that you can go into the gutter with someone and still come out clean. If this forum were composed of 2,000+ members, each with the exact same opinion, oh how truly boring and pitiful it would be!
I suppose that I also come from the vantage point of my father's suicide, and working through myself where exactly he is now. I had enough opinions, "He's in Hell," "He's in Heaven," that it was truly all a wash, one opinion cancelling out the other. And no, I never sought out a minister myself to ask point blank, where do YOU think he is? Due to my seminary background, I knew enough about the "shop" already not to put any minister in such a quandary. By nature of the hierarchy of any church, ministers are usually in a no-win situation. It is their job; and for many, it is only their part-time job. But yet, any minister must be prepared to answer any and all questions, from a grieving heart for sure.
And then there is the story of Augustine's mother, Monica, going to Ambrose, the Bishop, to ask (to plead!) what else she might do to draw her wayward son to the faith. She had already been praying for years, on her knees and in tears, with very little to show for it. So, Monica asked Ambrose point blank, and he knew she was not going to leave without a definite answer. True enough, he initially said, "I don't know ...," but then he paused, looking at her as she was already in tears again in his study; he knew she needed something way more definite than his uncertainty on the matter. So, he then spoke calmly, "My dear Monica, there is only one thing that I know for sure, and that is, NO ONE for whom THESE TEARS have been shed, will go unsaved."
God does ask us to come to Him as little children, and as little children ask their parents, don't we all seek definite answers? We learn definite answers in our youth, then unlearn them as we age, only to reconnect with these same answers later in life, in the midst of life's ebbs and flows. Are they the same answers as from our youth? Most likely not. But, don't we all want them to be just as definite?
Answering in the place of God Himself is an awesome challenge indeed. Still, I would never want God Himself to tell me, the moment my spirit leaves my body, "I don't know." Or worse, "well, see, it depends on how I am feeling today ... maybe you should have died yesterday; today is a bad day for me; I had some bad sushi for lunch." God will want a conversation with us at death; He will ask us point blank. And so too must our answer be clear.
Maybe the point of our back-and-forth here is to show others that you can go into the gutter with someone and still come out clean. If this forum were composed of 2,000+ members, each with the exact same opinion, oh how truly boring and pitiful it would be!